gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Moderator:Beheerders
Weet iemand wat de voor- en/of nadelen zijn van het solderen van spaakkruisingen?
El Tartelino groet u!
El Tartelino groet u!
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
..wordt een veel stijver en sterker wiel........maar als je een taco rijdt kun je het wel vergeten..
leuke oplossing is het gebruiken van tierips op de kruisingen.................volgens DT Swiss krijg je dan ook een stijver en sterker wiel
leuke oplossing is het gebruiken van tierips op de kruisingen.................volgens DT Swiss krijg je dan ook een stijver en sterker wiel
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Mythevorming afkomstig uit het baanwielrennen.
Enig praktisch nut is nooit bewezen (zoiets als het "stijver" zijn van radiaal gespaakte wielen).
Enig praktisch nut is nooit bewezen (zoiets als het "stijver" zijn van radiaal gespaakte wielen).
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
is geen mythe........motorcrossers laten ook wel eens de kruisingen met ijzerdraad verstevigen....
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
GTLTS schreef:
..wordt een veel stijver en sterker wiel........maar als je een taco rijdt kun je het wel vergeten..
leuke oplossing is het gebruiken van tierips op de kruisingen.................volgens DT Swiss krijg je dan ook een stijver en sterker wiel
Hmmmz sterk heel sterk, enige voordeel dat er zou kunnen zijn is dat je meer driehoekvorming in het wiel zou krijgen (kleine driehoek is stijver dan een grote). Dat zou technisch gezien steviger moeten zijn. Die truck met die tiewraps zie ik nie zitten omdat dan de spaken wel bij elkaar wordengehouden maar ze kunnen nogsteeds over mekaar heen schuiven (hier krijg je die extra driehoekswerking dus niet). Eigenlijk is dit iets soortgelijks als de snowflake wielen van vroeger. Die spaken ondersteunden mekaar ook... Ik heb net een stel nieuwe wielen(3kruis) van een heel goede wielenbouwer en ik kan zeggen; die zijn stevig en stijf zat hoor...
-
- Berichten:1518
- Lid geworden op:zo nov 18, 2001 1:12 am
- Locatie:Krommenie
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
blijft die soldering echt vast zitten dan? Zoiets hecht toch helemaal niet op een spaak? Lijkt mij dat wanneer de spaken een beetje werken in de bochten de soldering los schiet, of er gewoon af valt ???
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Ze hechten ook niet aan de spaak, maar aan elkaar.
- JJ
- Forumbeheerder
- Berichten:7298
- Lid geworden op:di jan 08, 2002 4:43 pm
- Locatie:Bunschoten
- Contacteer:
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Dit zegt Barnett:
TYING AND SOLDERING SPOKES
Tying and soldering is a technique used to restrain
the spokes in case they should break. Although it has
been credited with increasing the strength and stiffness
of the wheel, this has been scientifically disproved.
Any process that alters the metallurgy of the spoke
by exposing it to high heat should be avoided.
TYING AND SOLDERING SPOKES
Tying and soldering is a technique used to restrain
the spokes in case they should break. Although it has
been credited with increasing the strength and stiffness
of the wheel, this has been scientifically disproved.
Any process that alters the metallurgy of the spoke
by exposing it to high heat should be avoided.
-
- Berichten:1518
- Lid geworden op:zo nov 18, 2001 1:12 am
- Locatie:Krommenie
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
denk dat dan tiewraps idd een betere oplossing zijn, makkelijker, sneller, veiliger, mooier, lichter ::)
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Ik zie het nu t van tie-rips niet in om de zelfde reden die bettes noemt, en ik denk dat de spaken zwakker worden omdat je toch vrij heet moet gaan solderen wil je een verbinding maken die blijft zitten.
Gewoon proberen dus.
Gewoon proberen dus.
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Effe opgezocht. Dit helpt allemaal geen zier. En gaat toch geen tie-raps om twee spaken doen ::) ::) ;D
Hi,
Regarding the comments above...
The practice of tied and soldered spokes originated on high-wheeled
bicycles after cross-laced spokes were introduced. It served as a
means to prevent broken spokes from lashing about and contributing to
a crash. The practice has been continued beyond its time since its
original purpose has vanished, but it is perpetuated by claims of
increased wheel strength. Measurements have demonstrated that there
the tying and soldering of spokes produces no change in lateral
stiffness, torsional stiffness, or strength. The tying and soldering
of spokes is of no value for road or track wheels.
This is what the man who wrote the wheel builders bible has to say on
the matter...
While writing "the Bicycle Wheel", to conclusively determine what
effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked
Wheelsmith to loan me an untied pair of standard 36 spoke rear
wheels, on on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into
the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its
axle was held in the quill.
With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges
were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to
measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.
The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same
fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the
rim so that a 35 lb force could be applied tangential to the rim.
Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant
away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation
between the wheel and hub.
Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes,
no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few
thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and
soldered by Wheelsmith who did this as a regular service. The data
was collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to
find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.
I think it is apparent that tying can have no radial effect on the
wheel and that even it could produced a 20% change in elastic
response (about 0.001 inch) no one could detect such a difference.
That leaves lateral and torsional, the modes that were measured in a
precise setup on a machine tool bed.
As I said, low and high flange wheels were built by Wheelsmith, were
measured, were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, and were measured
again. Only tying and soldering was performed on the wheels between
the two measurements. There was no measurable change detected in
torsional or lateral stiffness by micrometer dial gauges located
around the wheel. The instrumentation for these measurements is
shown in detail in "the Bicycle Wheel".
That tying and soldering has no effect was no idle guess. Having
inspected many wheels, it had become apparent that spokes at their
crossings, repeatedly make and break welds by fretting micro motions,
eroding the metal so that the crossing spokes nest into each other in
a practically motionless junction. This can be detected by moving
spokes at their crossings after substantial use. That being the
case, it was apparent that tying and soldering could not affect wheel
stiffness because there is no motion to be restrained at this point.
Later, I came across an article from the days of high wheelers, that
explained an important feature of Starley"s invention of the cross
laced wheel. The crossed spokes could be tied with twine to prevent
headers (end-overs) when one of the huge spokes broke. Because all
racers subsequently had tied spokes, they kept tying them even after
high wheelers were replaced by today"s chain driven bicycles.
Apparently no one seriously questioned the practice while the
purveyors of the art claimed it made a stronger wheel (at extra
cost). I don"t doubt that they believed the claim but I"m less certain that
they believed it made a difference in racing performance. It also
made spoke replacement something that usually required a shop visit.
Jim McNamara (and Jobst Brandt ... of course)
Hi,
Regarding the comments above...
The practice of tied and soldered spokes originated on high-wheeled
bicycles after cross-laced spokes were introduced. It served as a
means to prevent broken spokes from lashing about and contributing to
a crash. The practice has been continued beyond its time since its
original purpose has vanished, but it is perpetuated by claims of
increased wheel strength. Measurements have demonstrated that there
the tying and soldering of spokes produces no change in lateral
stiffness, torsional stiffness, or strength. The tying and soldering
of spokes is of no value for road or track wheels.
This is what the man who wrote the wheel builders bible has to say on
the matter...
While writing "the Bicycle Wheel", to conclusively determine what
effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked
Wheelsmith to loan me an untied pair of standard 36 spoke rear
wheels, on on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into
the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its
axle was held in the quill.
With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges
were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to
measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.
The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same
fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the
rim so that a 35 lb force could be applied tangential to the rim.
Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant
away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation
between the wheel and hub.
Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes,
no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few
thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and
soldered by Wheelsmith who did this as a regular service. The data
was collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to
find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.
I think it is apparent that tying can have no radial effect on the
wheel and that even it could produced a 20% change in elastic
response (about 0.001 inch) no one could detect such a difference.
That leaves lateral and torsional, the modes that were measured in a
precise setup on a machine tool bed.
As I said, low and high flange wheels were built by Wheelsmith, were
measured, were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith, and were measured
again. Only tying and soldering was performed on the wheels between
the two measurements. There was no measurable change detected in
torsional or lateral stiffness by micrometer dial gauges located
around the wheel. The instrumentation for these measurements is
shown in detail in "the Bicycle Wheel".
That tying and soldering has no effect was no idle guess. Having
inspected many wheels, it had become apparent that spokes at their
crossings, repeatedly make and break welds by fretting micro motions,
eroding the metal so that the crossing spokes nest into each other in
a practically motionless junction. This can be detected by moving
spokes at their crossings after substantial use. That being the
case, it was apparent that tying and soldering could not affect wheel
stiffness because there is no motion to be restrained at this point.
Later, I came across an article from the days of high wheelers, that
explained an important feature of Starley"s invention of the cross
laced wheel. The crossed spokes could be tied with twine to prevent
headers (end-overs) when one of the huge spokes broke. Because all
racers subsequently had tied spokes, they kept tying them even after
high wheelers were replaced by today"s chain driven bicycles.
Apparently no one seriously questioned the practice while the
purveyors of the art claimed it made a stronger wheel (at extra
cost). I don"t doubt that they believed the claim but I"m less certain that
they believed it made a difference in racing performance. It also
made spoke replacement something that usually required a shop visit.
Jim McNamara (and Jobst Brandt ... of course)
- JJ
- Forumbeheerder
- Berichten:7298
- Lid geworden op:di jan 08, 2002 4:43 pm
- Locatie:Bunschoten
- Contacteer:
Re:gesoldeerde spaakkruisingen
Amen ;D